Name: Mid-Year Momentum: The Evolving Role of Public Service
Uploaded: 2025-06-17T17:16:11.010Z
Duration: 1 h 32 s
Description: Mid-Year Momentum: The Evolving Role of Public Service

Transcript for "Mid-Year Momentum: The Evolving Role of Public Service": Hello, everyone, and welcome to our webinar. Mid year, the evolving rule rule of public service. This webinar in our community conversations with Cornerstone series. I'm Michelle Clark, executive director of federal alliances and growth at Cornerstone, and I'm delighted to have you here with us. Before we dive into the presentation, I would like to go over some housekeeping rules. Recording will be shared post webinars, so don't don't worry about that if you have to, go and do something else. But we will record it, and we will share it with everybody that has signed up, and it will be on our our, website too. If you have any questions, please put it in q and a or feel free to put it in the chat, and we will be able to answer them, on the spot or at the end of the presentation. Resources, if you click over and look over, it says chat, docs, and q and a. There are plenty of resources under the docs, column. Please feel free to download them and also, you know, share with your colleagues. Any troubleshooting, please, put it in in Chrome or Safari. Don't use a VPN. Refresh your screen or clear any cache and cookies from your browser. As we reach the halfway point of the year, this engaging webinar will provide a platform for reflection and inspiration amidst the changing world of work. With a focus on workforce efficiencies, cost savings, and performance optimization amidst radical transformation and workforce changes, we will feature insights from esteemed experts and thought leaders. But before we start today's discussion, I'm pleased to introduce our moderator of this series, miss Mika Cross. Mika is a renowned workplace transformation strategist and workforce workplace expert with extensive experience helping organizations and individuals successfully navigate change. She has been instrumental in shaping the series, and we look forward to announcing more upcoming events you won't wanna miss. Mika, thank you for leading today's conversation. And without further ado, I'll turn it over to you to kick off today's discussion. The floor is yours. Thank you, Michelle, and welcome back, everyone. For those of you that are new to our community conversations, I'm really happy to have you here with us. Please help spread the word around these dialogues where we bring in fed adjacent, current fed, sometimes in their nonofficial capacity, and former feds as well as those who have been advocates for public sector and public service along the way as we navigate the complexities of this year in 2025. And can you believe it? We have already reached the halfway mark, throughout this year, and we, I think, still continue to find ourselves at a pivotal moment. So we wanna offer today as a chance to reflect, recalibrate, and refocus on the work ahead, but also highlight some of the tools, tips, resources, and advocacy groups that are working hard for public servants like you and those who are supporting them. So we are honored today to be joined by four remarkable thought leaders, each bringing a unique perspective on navigating the changing dynamics of public service. But as per usual, we want you to play along and say hello to them as I bring each one up to the virtual stage, give a quick introduction to who they are, what their focus is, and invite them to answer a fun little question. So I'm gonna invite you all to participate in the chat if you feel free to do it and as I call each one of these folks up to the stage. So to start things off, let's hear from you on terms of and then I'm gonna bring Rob up first, to tell us what life is like outside of OPM and what you're up to now, but also to answer this one question. What's one lesson or unexpected insight that you've gained so far in 2025 that has shaped your perspective on work or leadership? Rob? Hi, Mika. Hey, everybody. It's so great to be here. I'm Rob Shriver. My current role is that I'm the managing director for the civil service strong program at Democracy Forward. This is just the latest job in my nearly thirty year career where I've been fighting for and with civil servants. I started my career working as a lawyer with the National Treasury Employees Union for thirteen years. I've now served, at OPM during both the Obama and the Biden administrations. During the Biden administration, I was the deputy director, and then, I was the acting director of the agency for the last eight months, which was really, a dream job that I had. Now here at Democracy Forward, we are very busy, vindicating the legal rights of federal workers in the courts, and civil service strong goes beyond that and also provides, resources and other support to federal workers. And we'll talk a little more about that throughout the discussion today. I think that the surprise slash lesson, Mika, so far is that, courage can be hard to find, in times like this. And I think what we're seeing, some, organizations and entities that are really standing up in a courageous way and others that, are are looking to do whatever they can to get the heat off of them. And I wasn't really expecting that that would be the environment that we'd be walking into, and I'm so proud to be at an organization that has the courage to stand up every day and fight for the American people and fight for our democracy and fight for federal workers, and welcome more to the cause, day by day. Thanks for having me, Nika. Yeah, Rob. We are so grateful for that courage and for all that you and your organization is doing, to also have a voice for those who might not feel comfortable having one at the moment. So thank you for that. Alright. Next up, I'm gonna bring up a familiar face, maybe even more familiar voice, to those in the federal community who is the most recently transitioned, newly retired, mister Tom Pennman, to say hello, give a quick introduction, and give your thoughts about that question prompt as well. Tom, welcome. Thank you, Mika. It's good to be here. And, I have retired from journalism covering the federal market, but I'm not out of the market. I'm still doing a lot of projects connected to the federal. That's something that you can't just walk away from. So to those that are thinking about retirement, I just wanna say, it's not an event. It's a process. And I have been officially semi retired now for two months, and I haven't figured it out. And I think it takes a year or sometimes. I think it takes two years to figure out what you are, what you're gonna do. So all I can tell people thinking about that is to give it the time it takes and don't rush it, you know, because I think what will be will happen. And, sometimes you have to let life come at you and not try too hard to grab it towards you. The open question that Mika wanted us to talk about was work and leadership. And I guess I would say that work and leadership are really two different things, yet they again, they're a continuum, and they blend together. I think feds need to look, first of all, the statutory requirements that you have at the job. And you see that statutory requirement popping up in all of the directives coming from the administration. They wanna pair back to statutory areas, and those are limited because beyond statutory requirements of a job, so many federal people in management and career management have to deal with things that require judgment and discretion, people in procurement, people in designing programs, even trying to figure out what congress meant in a certain statutory requirement is not all that clear all the time. We've had Supreme Court go back and forth on the whole Chevron thing. But but the point is at some level, the work requires more than just doing, but also requires judgment and discretion. And beyond the judgment and discretion, I think federal managers are called on to innovate and to try to make things even better than was envisioned perhaps by Congress or even by the the American public that they're trying to serve. I think the customer experience area is is one of those. And I I just I just applied for Social Security finally. And, you know, it's here's an example where that's a statutory requirement. I earned a certain amount. I got my peeves, and here's what's coming. But it took them a long time to figure it out, to verify it longer than I think is statutory. But yet at the end of it, I got an incredible personal phone call with a person who gave me her first and last name and her five digit extension at the 800 number and explained everything. So that's where I think judgment and innovation come on top of the statutory requirements of work. And I think to the extent that the administration misses that, they're gonna miss a lot. So I'll just leave it at there and then and have you go on. Thanks. Well, I know we could talk all day, Tom, but I truly appreciate it, especially because you're on a a fantastic personal journey right now on your motorcycle trip, and you can weave in those experiences as well and thoughts throughout today's conversation. Thank you. Next up, I'd like to bring to the virtual stage Karen Lee. And Karen, like me, is also most of us are also former feds, have been working in a sedation role for quite some time, but recently new to the organization that you are serving for now. And, by the way, we put resources from Rob and from John and from Karen into the documents, so be sure that that you check those out. Karen, why don't you come up and say hello, introduce yourself to the folks today, and tell us a little bit about what you are up to these days, and maybe some thoughts about that question, maybe an unexpected insight that you've gained so far in 2025 thus far. Nika, thank you so much for, inviting me to join today's conversation. My name is Karen Lee. And as as Megan noted, my career started in federal government. I was in the office of management and budget. I served as a presidential management intern, and flowed in and out of government through my career. And, the most unexpected insight, of 2025 actually came from that career trajectory of moving in and out of government. It's it's very deeply personal. When I began exploring opportunities, to create impact outside of government, I discovered it was incredibly challenging where I could not figure out how to translate my government experience, into work outside of the government, and at the same time find a meaningful pathway to make make impact. This year, what I learned was that challenge was not unique to me. And in fact that, it's a systemic barrier for many of us in public service, where we are mission driven, professionals who wanna find impact in everything that we do. And so what started for me as a personal navigation, challenge of trying to figure out how to make impact outside of government, has led me, and revealed to me the need for a systemic support, a support to bridge talent to move from government out of government and honestly back in. And so to the work that we're doing at Feds Forward, I'm learning and seeing every day that civil servants, public servants, set set adjacent professionals. We're not just looking for jobs. We're looking to bring our mission driven focus, to tackle challenges all across the economy, across the sectors, but there aren't translation tools, there aren't networks, there aren't platforms to enable us to systemically do that. And so the lesson that I've learned, over the past couple months is that sometimes, your own personal struggle, my personal struggle, is actually pointing to something that is a larger opportunity, in this case, to build an infrastructure that all of us hopefully can use, and that all of us need. Yeah. Such great points. And I I love your emphasis on the the fact that sometimes it's a challenge to continue that mission driven purposeful work, but that it can be done. And and you all, today are living proof of that in terms of leading and serving from where you're at, to continue the good work. And so last but not least, I am gonna bring up some magic to the stage. Mister John Verico is joining us and interestingly worked while he was a active fed with Tom quite regularly, I believe, because you served in a public affairs communications role. You're also a fellow veteran and a fellow former fed who just last in the last year retired yourself. So, welcome to the stage, John. Tell us a little bit about yourself and give you a quick introduction and maybe an unexpected insight that you've gained so far. Great. Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me to this, and I was so delighted to, to be sharing this stage with Tom Temin, who is actually been one of my idols, throughout my the latter part of my career here in the Washington DC area. Tom Tom being a a reporter covering the federal service, and me being a spokesman trying to promote the federal service, we had a great working relationship. And, he basically not to to blow too much smoke, Tom, but, basically, you know, you were were the epitome of exactly the kind of person that we wanted to work within the government. And I'll say that, I spent forty two years as a public affairs person between in the navy and, in state service and also in the federal service. And the entire time, my whole career was focused on telling the stories of the government and the work that the government did. And the interesting part of that is somehow, in all those forty two years, I managed to avoid doing that from the political perspective. Always focused on the work of the civil servant because that's where the rubber meets the road. That's the most important thing that the government does is the services that are provided by the civil servants and the work that's done. So I always focus on helping to promote that work, and to get recognition for the people who were doing that work since I retired last year. And, Tom, you mentioned this. You know, it takes a while to get used to this whole retirement thing. I've come to a realization that retired is actually a hyphenated word because you're tired and retired. I have been busier since I retired than ever before. I'm constantly this is part of my makeup, I think, is I have what my wife refers to as helium arm. So whenever time something comes up or somebody wants something done, I'll do it. I'll do it. Sure. Count me in. So and I also realized that, busy is an acronym, and it stands for basically underserving yourself. And so I've been focusing on trying to do a little bit less with little bit more impact. So over the past year, I've been working as a speaker and as a coach, helping people with their communication and leadership skills and helping people tell their story and to to reach inside themselves and pull out that that magic that's inside themselves and that motivational fire that starts way in here and show them how they can share that fire. So there's the magic you asked for, my cheesy dad magic. I will just say the one thing that I've noticed or something that I think comes to the forefront is, that now more than ever, we need to work together. There's no place to protect your little puka and worry about getting your fair share of the work or anything like that. We need to support one another. Workloads are going to increase as the workforce gets smaller. The missions are going to change, and we can't allow things like hate division and fear to dominate our mind and our energy when we have real work that needs to be done that people are relying on. So I'll just leave it there. Thank you, John. And, again, thanks to all our panelists today for this great conversation. Before we dive in to our discussion even further, I just wanna remind you, you can drop your sentiments, questions, insights, or even reactions to, what we're talking about today in the chat. And, also just wanna remind you, we're not gonna be getting super technical on any of the, like, workforce transitions and restructuring policy pieces that are going on as it relates to individuals, but more for the collective. So just wanna gently nudge us to think about the broader perspective. And we're gonna point you to resources if you do have some technical challenges that could be helpful through some of the organizations that these folks are representing. So, Rob, I'm gonna tag you into this part as we think about, like, navigating workforce transformation. So from your time in the federal space, especially at OPM and now at Democracy Forward, you know, do you have some insights and thoughts and suggestions in terms about how agencies or leaders that are still around in the agencies are looking to modernize and reshape the workforce, both through that efficiency lens, but more importantly, I think while caring for worker well-being and being thoughtful about how to implement all of the changes that they're required to do. Have you seen this done well maybe throughout your career in the many decades that you've served? Any lessons learned that you'd share? Yeah. Sure, Mika. I have seen it done well, and I have seen it done terribly. And right now what's happening is terrible because this is the absolute worst way to carry out any kind of workforce restructuring, any significant event that affects your workers in a big way. What I have learned starting with my time at the union is that if you wanna change things, if you wanna make things more efficient, if you wanna thing make things operate better, if you wanna have the kind of, customer service relationship where somebody is calling you back and telling you this is what your Social Security benefit is, You go to the workers, and you talk to them, and you engage them, and you say, what are your ideas? You're the subject matter experts. You've been working in this space for so long. What is holding you back? What tools don't you have? What are your suggestions for how we can improve efficiency? Where do you think that, you know, we have paid too much attention, and where do you think we've paid not enough attention? And if you go to those folks, they they will be so appreciative that you care about their expertise, and they have all the ideas, all the ideas that you should start with. And if you don't start with the workers, then you're missing a huge opportunity. And so I have seen, really good, projects. One that I was involved with at OPM the last few years that I was there is we had to set up a whole new health benefit system for postal workers. Like, 2,000,000 postal workers that had been in the federal employee health benefit program and through the postal reform, legislation were taken out, and OPM had to set up a a brand new system. And the FEHB program had been around for many, many decades. And we wanted to the the workers who who worked on that FEHB program day in and day out for all of their careers, they wanted to build the postal, system differently because they knew that FEHB was not run as efficiently as it could be. There was no central enrollment system. OPM didn't have the data to really, like, make sure that people were were having the right choices before them. There wasn't good decision support for enrollees. So all of the experts who had worked on the FEHB, they came up with how can we design this system for the postal workers to be better, to be more customer more customer friendly, design it efficiently. And then if we do that and we do that well, how can we then convince congress to fund us to do it for the whole FEHB program? And so we we paid a lot of attention. We had a lot of engagement. We had structure set up sort of at every levels of the organization. So the people that were working together and it was from I think we had, like, 10 different parts of OPM that were working on this system. And so we had to set it up so they were all working together. They were all talking. Folks were working very hard too, like, around the clock because of tight deadlines. And so having, like, being, sort of, purposeful about trying to build in some downtime, being purposeful about respecting people's vacation time, being purposeful about giving time off awards when folks were really cranking around the clock, checking in, having the managers check-in with employees all the time, having regular sessions, like all hands sessions with everybody working on the program where they had an opportunity anonymously to raise whatever concerns they had so we can address them. It was all about getting not only the buy in from the frontline workers, but their expertise and having them see it reflected in the final product. And then when we successfully rolled that out and had a very smooth open season, the pride that they all felt in that, they'll take that with them for the rest of their career. Yeah. I think you're spot on, Rob, too about, you know, including the experts that are required to make the changes happen. Right? And if we're not doing that, we're completely missing the mark. And we see that in private industry too at times. We're seeing some headlines around organizations that also are going through in the private sector seeing similar, challenges with restructuring and rightsizing. Maybe that means downsizing and layoffs, but there is a right way and then there's a better way to kind of implement that. And so, Tom, I I'm gonna tag you into this to add on to that because I I suspect that some of the challenges we're seeing in this, different strategy for doing these transformational changes that we're seeing might stem from public perception and maybe misperception around federal government work and public service. And so I'm wondering with your extensive background covering decades of federal workforce issues, you know, what what emerging trends or or what advice would you have in terms of thinking about how can we leverage or restore public trust and the narratives that are going on so that we can get down to business and, do the right things that the government is required to do. Sure. You know, many years ago, a long retired senior executive had said that, well, the federal government is wholesale government, and it's state and local that is retail government. But I I never thought that was quite correct. The federal government has a big, if you will, retail direct to the citizen role. I mentioned things like my own issue with Social Security, tax administration, that's retail government. The, the park services and all of the things they do. They've they were pioneers in online reservations and so forth, veterans affairs serving the whatever it is, 19,000,000 veterans alive in The United States and so on. And so I think that the performance of those at the individual level is just highly important, and no administration is going to continue to support if people stop getting the services that they pay for. I mean, it's not like it's charity, you know, on the government's part. So I I think that the perception of performance by the individual is super important to to whatever, you know, reforms we're gonna have to see. And then there is that wholesale example of government. Can they improve on what people widely know to the issues? You know, is is regulation fair and administered properly and not overreaching? You know, there was a whole I think people are well well aware of the the, military challenges for The United States. And I think most people at some level understand that if the government can't protect itself and protect the nation, then that's it's failing in its fundamental duty. And, you know, so I've been having this sort of discussion with a lot of people that, yes, we have unconventional people in place now. And we can mention the secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth, is certainly not what you would say is a ordinary type of standard type of issue of secretary of defense based on the last number of decades. But on the other hand, we had someone who punched every ticket, who was the perfect resume for for the, secretary of defense. And yet in those four years, nothing really got better in terms of procurement reform despite the 10,000 suggestions from four or five different commissions on small business, large business procurement, the six zero nine panel, the PPBE panel. Volumes of ideas on reforms, little bit of it's caught, but not a whole lot happened. Recruitment didn't improve appreciably, readiness, this condition of the fleet. You know, so whether and it still hasn't, and I haven't heard HEGCEF talk about much of those things. So it it's not it's it's performance. It's not who's there because we've had a totally unconventional following someone totally conventional, and still military is kind of where it is. So I just use that as an example that I think people understand that. So the perception that things are getting better in terms of the wholesale performance, I think, is also. And then there's the perception of whether the government seems culturally normal, and that takes many forms. And, you know, these are tough questions, the whole DEI thing. I think anyone who ever went through corporate DEI training came out scratching their head and saying, what the heck was that all about? You know? And, and so I think the way the administration has gone about what could be argued as a reasonable policy, they've done it in kind of an unreasonable way, and that hurts perception. I think people whether the administration and administrators is is in control. And I think we have to understand this administration wants fundamental change even down to whether the the statutory basis for, small business set asides itself is even constitutional. Huge, huge questions being asked now. And so I think, ultimately, you know, people join and serve the government to do what matters to them. And to the extent that they are able to do that correctly, I think, reflects on whether they wanna be in government and whether the people that they serve will support the government. Another example I like to mention is the Bureau of Prisons. That has been a poorly performing agency no matter who's president, no matter who's the director, no matter what Congress says or does. And, you know, it it's well, it's a small agency, a 135,000 inmates. Who cares? They're bad guys. What do we care about them? But the measure of society is how it treats the most vulnerable. And if you have the postulate to that incarceration itself is sufficient punishment, then there should not be further visitation of cruelty above the fact of incarceration. And that's the guiding principle I don't think BOP has been able to get across. So I guess its performance is what I'm saying is is is the ultimate at the retail level and at the wholesale level and at the value level. You know, we're deporting people. And the Obama administration deporting people, but are we doing that in a way that to the public looks like, yeah, those guys, we really gotta get out. No no question about grab them and get them out of here, the MS 13 and so forth. Others, it's not so clear whether it's it's worth the effort, whether this, you know, the juice is worth the squeeze to get the guy who came here because he really wants to be American and adopt American value. So, not easy questions, but, ultimately, the performance and how things are are tackled, I think, will have a huge degree of whether people have faith in what's going on. Yeah. Well, I think I mean, the for the focus on performance is something most people can get behind. You know, most people can agree that they want more efficient, better running government services, and especially those who serve inside the organization. They care very deeply about the mission. It's why we work for the government. It's why we do what we do. And, Karen, I I wonder, you know, as as agencies are faced with a dual challenge of aligning these rapid fire workforce changes and strategies to mission success that's now newly defined with, you know, balancing the cost efficiencies and and also thinking about, the future of the next three years. What do you think we can be thinking about or what strategies have you seen succeed in sort of balancing those priorities without compromising the ability for the federal government to think about the future of next generation public servants? And do you have thoughts around, you mentioned in your early remarks, when people have to make a tough decision or it's being made for them to pivot outside of public sector? Do you have thoughts in terms of what resources could be helpful as they're looking to continue serving in different capacities, maybe fed adjacent or public service adjacent? Oh, you're on mute. I'm sorry about that. Let's check. Yeah. You got it. Okay. Yeah. The key in my mind is recognizing that talent mobility is actually a way to enhance those priorities. So we're in a moment right now where there is a, a not insignificant number of federal workers who are now pivoting and transitioning to work outside of the government. And where it is, a crisis to the extent that many did not plan this moment, there is an opportunity, an opportunity to bring that impact outside of the federal government, and form partnerships across sectors to achieve those missions. One thing that we've recognized in government for a very long time is the value of partnerships across federal, state, local government, private sector, nonprofit, academia. We do that historically and traditionally through, mechanisms like grants and contracts, through public private partnerships, through coalition building, conferences, and otherwise. And now we're at the crossroads for another suite of innovation, I think, that we can make, which is through that talent mobility where federal talent cuts across all those sectors. We can we can inspire that public service and the ability to achieve that mission where we have federal talent embedded across the sectors. Recognizing how the federal government has historically wanted to make and bring that impact, both wholesale and retail, as Tom, you noted, but also then executing that in new roles in different sectors. And I think the opportunity there is to not only build the partnerships, but in fact embed embed those partnerships through the people and the talent that now are cutting across every part of the American economy with a recognition of how we do at the national and international level and bringing it to all of our communities. Yeah. That's that's great, perspectives too. And I I think, John, for you, the most, recently federal employee who retired, career civil servant that is, who had a choice in retiring but did so last year. With your expertise in sort of communication, motivation, and leadership, what do you what would you say to those that are experiencing, you know, these changes and commits that they're not in control over or that they feel sort of forced to make? Any any words of wisdom to navigate the seas of uncertainty in that capacity as they're looking to continue serving in other roles and other areas outside of their their federal role? You know, I wish I had a magic formula, but I'll say that probably the the the main thing to remember is that you're not alone. Right? You're not you're not being, you're not you're not just the only person going through all of this stuff. Yeah. I got out while I still had a choice to get out. And then, actually, at the time, I didn't know there was gonna be any other, you know, kind of forcing or anything like that. It was just time for me to go. Forty two years was enough. But, you know, and I hit that magic 65, number. But, you know, some of the things that have been said so far, really are are eye opening, I think, for people to realize that there are options and opportunities. The thing is it's not about what what's been happening now is the changes that are being made are being made without consideration for what the services are that are being provided. I think what's happening is because there was a misconception of the government. It's for years, people have said, oh, the government's too big. The government does, you know, has got too many people, and there was just this perception that there was a lot of waste in government. There's a lot of waste. Yes. There's a lot of things that that, maybe don't need to happen. That's also you see that in corporate America as well as in government. So there's always things that could be restructured. But I think a a blind sweeping cut that just eliminated stuff without evaluating the value of the programs that were being cut, that, I think, made things so frustrating for folks. Let's face it. We don't make a lot of money in the federal service. A lot of people think we do. We're in the federal service because we are committed to serve. We want to do good for our community, for our constituents. That's why we stay. I could have made a ton more money working for a corporate corporation or, you know, a PR firm or something like that. But I stayed in government because I believed in telling the stories of what the government was doing and the services it was providing to the people. That's why I stayed. That's why most people stay in government. It's not for job security. It's not for, it's certainly not for any kind of perks because we don't get people don't think don't realize how many restrictions we have on perks. Right? So because of these these misconceptions, people when when people were hearing about cuts to the government, they're like, yeah. Save us money. Well, you realize that every cut was taking away something that was benefiting some portion of the public. And that is, I think, where the big challenge comes in right now. I would say the key things to to keep in mind in all of this and what, what people need to, to do, people who are in management positions and things like that, and all of us need to understand that the key elements we need to keep in mind are trust. Right? We have to be able to trust each other. People need to be able to the public needs to be able to trust that people in government are doing their job. The supervisors need to trust the people who are gonna do the work that's been assigned to them. The people who are doing the work need to trust that their bosses are actually you know, got their back and are gonna provide the resources needed. So there's gotta be a trust factor going on. People have need to have the opportunity to be able to do the job that they've been asked to do, not be restricted, by by policy and other things. Somebody says, okay. You need to provide this service. Give me the resources to provide the service. Let me have that opportunity. Let me have the opportunity to grow as well and learn. Yeah. There's so many elements, of all of it, but I think the the last factor that I wanna point out before I I turn it back over to you is that we have to remember that there's a human factor here. Right? Everybody impacted is a human being. They've got a life outside the office as well as inside the office, and they're trying to do their absolute best. And so we need to keep humanity in mind as a key piece of all of it. Yeah. Thanks, John. And you you really mentioned, a few elements about the human element and also the community piece. And I think, Karen, you had some thoughts on on that piece that we're not alone in terms of what might be some useful thoughts or resources as well. John yes. John, that's an excellent point because, as as any one of you may be in the process of pivoting and transitioning, remembering that you're not alone, but also there are many who've gone before you and made that pivot, I think, is critical. Because while, you may never you've never got done this before, and your path will not be in any way what any other person has done because you're a unique individual with your unique experiences, skills, areas of interest, passion, and desire to make impact. There are so many others that have come before all of us who have made those transitions in their own way that we can learn from. And so I think your point, John, is Yes. So critical that our federal community, and the alumni of feds who are now outside of government and have made those transitions through our career, are such a source of support and candidly gold to help explore what those different pathways are. Pathways that in the model might not be yours or mine specifically, but give us inspiration and insights of where we can go. The other thing I'll note is in terms of, some resources. One of the things that we have heard consistently across, the federal community is just this, desire for support to translate our federal experience and skills into, skills and experience that are applicable for sectors outside of the government. At Feds four, we created a playbook, that in, enables you to do that with the support of an AI agent, whichever one that you'd like. And what it does is not only help you translate those skills, what you did as a g s fourteen grants manager, at HHS and how you might frame that on the outside. But even more importantly, it helps you explore, avenues and truly, like, very creative pathways of how you can use that very unique and, in many cases, niche federal experience and apply it outside of government in really different ways, but ways that other sectors so desperately need because they don't have the perspectives that you've been afforded to have in government. And so that exploration is just, I think really it it can be really exciting, in the opportunity to see how you can extend what you have done, how you served in the government, and find lots of other ways to do that in sectors that so desperately need you. Yeah. So I just make it I'm sorry. I just wanna say, I think it's an excellent point. And when you talked about embedding the embedding into, different sectors, I think we have a lot of value coming out of federal service and coming from that service minded environment and going out into other sectors and being able to share that experience, and bring that mindset with us. We can actually change the way other sectors operate by by bringing that mindset to it. So brilliant. And I think, you know, it's interesting. I'm gonna jump over to Tom for a minute and then over to Rob too to weigh in. But, you know, often, we see public servants serving for a really long time. And, Tom, your your career was not much different. I mean, what is it? Was it four decades of, doing stuff you love and and and digging into this community, you know, from a different vantage point. You were you were a government employee, but, this was your life's work, your meaning, your purpose, your identity. And I wonder, can you talk through maybe some of the challenges of transitioning, but also some of those opportunities that you're finding with your time, with redefining your identity, how you're keeping yourself busy, that might give some inspiration to others too. And then I wanna jump over to Rob, on the legislative side and and what some resources could look like. Okay. Yeah. And, I wanna come back after Rob because I have some very strong ideas on the legislative side that I think is kind of a big missing piece here. But, yeah, I I was forty eight years in journalism. And unlike John, I went all the way to 70 and, which I turned a couple of months ago, but because I loved it. I loved my work and the people I work with to the day I stepped aside. On the other hand, you know, everybody has an internal psychic clock that tells you. And so I was able to tell the w Federal News Network two years in advance I'm gonna be leaving on 04/30/2020 what is it, 2025. I told them that on 04/30/2023. So you can you can love it, but that doesn't mean you it it can you know, you have to work till till you die. The decision of whether to retire before, you know, any kind of old age sets in 65, 69, seventy, seventy two, really is a tough question. And it seems like for federal employees now, golly, I should get out, and a lot of them have gotten out voluntarily or involuntarily. But as the DOGE effort seems to recede and kind of dissipate, what we might see is political appointees taking actually running their own agencies. And many people over the years that I've seen, the complaints I've gotten and the stories that I have to go investigate is people feeling abused not by political appointees, but by the supervisor in the career ranks that they have. That's a huge factor because not every federal manager and every federal executive is competent at managing and leading. Many are, but there's a certain minority that are not, and they can cause more havoc than the worst political appointee you could ever imagine. So I think it's important to evaluate your own relationships with the people around you and above you and never mind reputation, but what is your relationship with that person? Because I can tell you in my career, I have been assigned to people who had horrible reputations as managers. And I can say unequivocally, I've left every one of them, became lifelong friends and mentors, and told me they learned from me. So always always make your own relationship with people and never rely on what you think you might have heard about them or what you have heard about them. And then the other question is is it still possible to do quality work and certain types of work you can do for a long time? Like my my work involved a lot of different mental and physical skills, but among the physical skills was vocal work. And and as it got to go, as time went on, I could feel my voice giving out on Fridays. Mhmm. There is a good clue that maybe, you know, why would you so you have to evaluate your own ability to do the quality and have the energy to do the quality type of work you feel you can do. So I think that's really important. And then if you are looking toward work outside of the government, first of all, you know, the the contracting community is being squeezed pretty hard too. Yeah. Swaths of contractors are told, you know, that's a disgrace what you're offering us for a discount. Come back with another 7%. And so there's not this stampede of falling into the private sector walk walking the arms. I think a lot of feds are finding there's not a lot of that dynamic is a little weaker than it was a year ago and five years ago. So, you know, be realistic about what it is you can offer industry. And if approached by industry, make sure that you understand what it is they really want from you. Mhmm. I mean, I was between jobs for a while, and I did a year of consulting and kept it up on the side for the rest of the time. And there were people that wanted Rolodex information. Well, if somebody's hiring you for your Rolodex, and this is especially true of feds, walk run away from that. Don't walk away from that because name one person in place two years ago that's there now in any agency you can name, you know, in any kind of decision making level. It's 1% if so your Rolodex so just understand exactly why they want you and if it really matches your own skills, and you gotta be realistic about what you really wanna do. So that that's my advice. As far as transition Tom, Tom, real quick. I just wonder how many people out there who are listening know remember what a Rolodex is. Yeah. That's right. We're dating ourselves and my friends. We're not actually a Rolodex. We still make Rolodex cards, aren't we? Well, I I think these are all really, really wise considerations, and and that applies for people that maybe have the luxury of making the decisions themselves. Right. But, Rob, with all the changing fury of legislative changes, legal executive orders coming in, Where can feds look to for help and resources when they feel like they don't understand how this can impact them right now? If there are any legal repercussions or courses of action that they can take when maybe the choice is taken away, maybe maybe temporarily, maybe on a long term? But where can we point people to when they're feeling like the choices is out of their hands and they don't know where to turn to for help and resources as it relates to their employment, their next steps? Yeah, Mika. So that's a great question because I think what we have seen is that all of the regular systems that were established to handle these kinds of issues have been overwhelmed, Whether that is, like, the official government channels, like your HR office or, or independent agencies, like the Office of Special Counsel, the Merit System Protection Board, your unions, the very small niche federal employment bar of lawyers. It's been quite a challenge for the entire ecosystem to respond just given the breadth and scope of what's been going on. So, several tips that I have for you. One is that, our website civilservicestrong.org is a a place where you can go that has resources that explain what's going on, in you know, we have a bunch of one of the things I know the guy wanted to talk about was, like, regulations and legislation. So we have, like, fact sheets up there that explain what's going on on the regulatory front, that when new guidance comes out of OPM, we put stuff up there. I'm really proud that we've put together a coalition of over 60 organizations. Karen's great organization is part of it, that's organized around supporting, federal workers, providing, not only resources, but also other kinds of support, like the kinds of support that she's talking about. Wow. And we're leading that with the partnership for public service, which continues to be an excellent resource. If you're part of a union going to your union, your union reps, it's always a good place to start. Often, people who are in a bargaining unit and covered by a collective bargaining agreement have additional and different rights than those who are not, so that's an important place to go. Mhmm. Proud that we partnered with the AFL CIO and Lead the Action to stand up the RISE Up Federal Worker Legal Defense Network. This is a place where feds can go and get up to an hour of free consultation from lawyers who are trained to help. It's backed up by, expert law firms that do federal, employee litigation as as their practice. We also have, former, HR officials, retired HR officials that are resources for us that are supporting that network. So, the the RISE UP, Federal Workers Legal Defense Network is a great first step if you just don't know what's going on. They're they're also trained to understand all of the different legal actions that have been filed and help you see, okay, does this one is there one that out that's out there that already applies to me, and what is the status of that? Because there are so many lawsuits and so many different forums that just figuring out if you've gotta file your own appeal or if somebody's already got you covered is complex. So checking out that network is a good place from the starting point. Oh, thank you so much for all of those resources and to all of the 60 plus partners that are that are banding together to provide support and resources. I think this conversation is truly spotlighted, you know, both the challenges and opportunities. At the end of the day, we can all agree that public servants wanna do their jobs, whatever their mission ends up being, through transition, through change, through workforce restructuring. But before we wrap up, I wanna give each of you a moment to reflect do a final reflection. And so I'm gonna go to Rob because you already just had the mic, and then Tom, and then Karen, and then John. And then we'll see if we have a few more moments to either add flavor to our conversation or take some questions. But if you were to lead the audience today, with one key takeaway, Rob, in terms about navigating change in public service, whether it be now, whether it be year from years ago, or whether it be in the future? What what would that be? So I think I would start with what I just said. And I want federal workers to know that there are so many people that are fighting for you and standing by you and supporting you because we know about the work that you do. We know about your commitment to the oath of office that you take, about the fact that you are driven every day to deliver for the American people. When I talk to federal employees who are worried about their livelihoods, that's not even the first thing they mentioned to me. What they say to me is, who's gonna do this work that this community has been relying on me for? What's gonna happen to these people who they need our help? What's gonna happen to them? They say that first, and that is so consistent with the vision of a civil servant that I have. There seems to be this perception that the civil service is some deep state that is out to thwart the Trump administration, and I just don't think that the Social Security worker that gets up every morning and goes to Baltimore is thinking, how do I thwart the Trump administration today? I don't think the air traffic controller gets up thinking, how can I mess with air with with Trump? I don't think that the person who's inspecting our poultry is thinking, how can I mess with Trump today? How can I impede the administration's agenda? 85% of federal workers work outside the DMV. So few actually work on policy matters, yet you would think that everybody in the federal government is a policy expert that's trying to push some woke agenda to to just win one over on the Trump administration. That's just not who civil servants are. We know that's not who you are. We hope that the people that are in the government now in leadership positions come to learn that about you. And I think, like, my part awards to my OPM team when I left was you honor me by working as hard for the incoming team as you did for me. So if they give you that chance to show what you can do, as long as it's consistent with the law, consistent with your oath, show them Show them what civil servants are all about. I think it could be helpful in changing the dynamic. Love that. Thank you. Tom? Yeah. Well, I think one of the big missing elements is congress in all of this because it has ceased to function, basically, in any meaningful way. I mean, they're still talking about this bill, you know, and I've been on vacation for a week and the same questions about this, that, and the other in the bill. But, basically, they have never faced the question or can't face the question because they're too divided on what should the government do and what not do. And if you decide, okay, we're not going to do this, then that goes away, and everybody understands that because that was a vote in some way that reflects what those people thought they were representing of the American people. So instead, you've got an administration coming in and kind of burning down things at random because that's the only way they feel they can make change. You know, at one time, the IRS was not a very good organization, and there was a it was the jackbooted thug era, but congress managed to pass a reform plan that and then, well, what was the name of the, I think, I forget his name now. The the commissioner came in to execute that plan that created four different divisions in the IRS, and it was a tremendous period of of, customer service improvement, of technology improvement. Never perfect. Never nothing was ever a 100%, but it was vastly different because Congress and and and subsequent administrations agreed on a vision for what the IRS should do and not do. And it went to get Charles Rosati. Thank you, Rob. He was he I interviewed him years ago. So that's what can happen. You look at the USAID. Well, what is the purpose of it? I mean, I don't think it's ever been defined. So there was a lot of creep and mission creep. And if it spent a billion dollars on this or that, maybe it could reasonably spend 500,000,000, but there was no real analysis, so the whole thing got scrambled. So the lack of clarity of mission, the lack of an analyst analysis in an objective way of what should be done and not done, and the decision of, if we're going to do this, let's do it right and give it the resources it should have to be done right. That that process seems to have vanished. And I think that's our fundamental problem. It almost reminds me of some of the mission of one of our partners, humans of public service, and telling stories around what we do on a daily basis that are left untold and not in the limelight. I think it's it is important for us to speak up in terms of what what are we legislated and mandated to do for our mission, and how is it working, and and how can we tell those stories better. Thank you, Tom, so much. Thank you, Rob. Alright. Karen and then John, lightning round. Last thoughts to think about before we wrap up. So I think one take takeaway I'd love to leave with the audience is that your public service mission, doesn't end when you leave government. If you end up leaving the federal government, it can expand. When you stay or go, you're part of a larger ecosystem of public servants, people who are committed to serving in the public good. And, we're we're gonna build those bridges, through our work collectively through FedsForward and the coalition of organizations that is lifting up public servants, to maintain those connections. I I suppose the thing I'd I'd love to leave with everyone is that, the greatest impact that you can make if if you do end up leading the federal government is bringing that mission focused mindset to new places. And, where I remember when I left government, I wondered if there would ever be any job as good as the one that I did at OMB. And, just like a first love, there'll never be one that's exactly the same, but there can be ones that are just as meaningful and impactful, where you're able to grow and, bring a lot of change. Yeah. I agree. I mean, just look at our panelists continuing to still serve and do the good work that we do. Thank you, Karen. John, final moment. Hey. Real quick. I wanna just, kind of, add to what has been said and what has been alluded to. Look. A good 90%, if not even greater, I don't have real numbers, but I'll tell you a great majority of of employees do not care who's in the White House, do not care what party is in charge. They have a mission. They're here to serve, and they they really don't care about the the weird policies and all that other stuff and the politics. They care about providing service. And I want everyone out here to to know that you make a difference. Your job matters. Whether the government believes it or not, what you do matters, and you absolutely have make make a difference. And you have been making a difference for all your time in serving. So I wanna say thank you to my federal, my fellow feds, and everyone else who's in government military service. Thank you for what you do. You matter. Thank you. And thank you all for your time, for your service, for your conversation today as part of this community. Thank you, Rob. Thank you, Tom. Thank you, Karen. Thank you, John. And Michelle, thank you to you and the Cornerstone team. I look forward to continuing these community conversations. Please feel free to drop us a line and let us know what other kinds of topics you wanna hear about, and stay tuned because we're coming in person in October for the Cornerstone Workforce Innovation Summit. Michelle, over to you, and thank you again for hosting us. I just wanna echo that, and thank you so much again, Tom, Karen, John, and Rob for your powerful insights. And, again, please click on the documents, tab and click on our, resource, hub. Again, please, save the date. We will be sending that out shortly, URL to register for 10/23/2025. It will be virtual and in person. So I see a lot of people on here are in North Carolina, California. You can still join us or hop a plane and come and visit us and see us face to face in in Washington DC. Thank you so much, and have a good evening.